Ship and Combat balance?

Here are some quick details about the changes I made to the flight model:

All lateral thrusters were set to at least 15m/s/s. Most others were increased to a 5th or 6th of main thrusters value.

Main thruster acceleration was increased to at least 30m/s/s. Thruster were also increased across the board. A heavy corvette has 250m/s/s. A tug 150m/s/s

Rotational acceleration was increased to at least 15m/s/s. Destroyers, Cruisers etc. received this value. Other ships had their rotational values increased slightly. A heavy corvette has 25/m/s/s. A tug between 30-35m/s/s

Top speed for all ships was set at 5000/5000/10000. For simple consistency, and because some players were enjoying the higher speeds/wider combat.

This should give players an idea of the source of differences in the combat/flight model they are experiencing

A limit of 5000 is still complete crap for anyone who uses a throttle and doesn't just completely disable the flight control and thrust manually, because there's too little precision. At the minimum threshold for a throttle just above where Edge of Chaos sets your desired speed to zero, your ship is already travelling at well over the standard EoC maximum speed!

Why can't the player ships' speeds have something like 3:10 ratio of maximum speed versus the non-player ships? The player can always use his burners to control his speed, and as such a so-called maximum speed for the player is not a maximum at all, whereas a maximum speed for the enemies is in fact a maximum speed because the AI rarely exceeds its maximum speed. The player's maximum speed should thus be set for the player's convenience at "cruising" speeds. The maximum speed of AI ships, on the other hand, should be set high to allow them to actually fly like the player does.

I like the high speed combat, but HATE the flight assistance with such massive upper speed limits. I figure most people who want to go faster than 1000 m/s use the afterburner, so any form of automation that goes faster than that gives you the feeling of being completely out of control of your ship, and makes your ship feel stubborn and useless when you notice you're going to overshoot your target.

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This is a public service announcement: Please look through all six degrees of freedom before crossing the L-point.

Yes, we can change that. I thought that was agreed on. The player ship needs different set points from the AI.

I think regardless of how you decide to balance ship combat/speeds that you should include a toggle or at least diffrent installs that allow the player to pick the model THEY want. Everyone has diffrent tastes and I think it would be nice if you had several diffrent choices. Although I think you should not make a ton of diffrent models that aren't planned well. I think you should have something like the freelancer/darkstar one model, the orginal I-war2 model slightly tweaked, and one that is like the 11.3 model. Regardless on what flight systems you choose to make selectable you should make sure that they are well thought out and are well tested so they do not create problems i.e. the carrier carshing into things because of low thrust.

I don't really like the "high-speed" aspect of 11.3 I found that I didn't like the high-speed battles and that no matter what I did the enemies could always stay with me and while this isnt really a failing in the flight model as it was a failure of my piloting abilities in that enviroment. Still I found it more frustrating to have to deal with it. While I am sure many of you like this "realistic" flight model I am also sure that many others don't. Its not that your wrong and I am right or vice versa, but that everyone has somthing they are looking for in a flight model. The key is to support the "casual gamer" who wants an easier model, while supporting those who are "hardcore" and want complicated strategic vector planning at high speeds. I guess that would put me with the more "casual" side, I just want to get in quickly blast the escorts grab the pods and get out before the government shows up. A protracted battle at several thousand m/s just doesn't suit me.

I felt that the orginal iwar2 model was a good compromise, although definitely not without flaws, one of which is the afterburner allowing the player to "outrun" the AI easily. Anyways, Whatever you decide, I would like to see several choices so the player can select a flight model that suits them.

"Better to die now with honor, than to live with shame."

It is very easy to break the ships out so that there are multiple versions. However, balancing the ships well is really hard. There are tons of competing requirements.

You have a good example right in your description. Flaw: Player overboost allows outrunning AI ships. Solution: Allow AI ships to go fast. Which results in Flaw: Annoying high speed combat.

I expect we will end up with a pretty vanilla set of ships that most people don't find offensive in some way. And then I also expect that Cambragol will build a set that implements a combat style he really likes. If others want to put together something else, I would be glad to show people how to include them. 11.4 will break the ships out as a separate mod to make the process easy.

Yeah, or a Vanilla set of ships that everyone finds offensive. The ships are going to be in flux for awhile, until we really get an idea of all the requirements we have for them. However, there are mounting limitations to the changes we can actually make to them. Or the direction we can take them. The play conditions of the game are going to largely dictate what kindof flight model and combat model we end up with.

JT I thrust manually usually, so I guess that is why I haven't noticed what you are experiencing. We can knock the max speed down even further next time if you want. Maybe down to 1000/3000 or something.